(no subject)

[urocyon]

Twisty has done it again. In this post, she succinctly describes most of my intellectual objections to marriage, which I had only managed to articulate clumsily. To be precise I should say, objections to the form of marriage busily being foisted upon us--I do not want to fall into the "insane power dynamics everywhere and always in human society" trap.

I do have more personal (though not more visceral) objections, but this is another of those cases where an amazing number of people have shown willing to seize onto any offered shred of personal experience in an attempt to ignore and invalidate the rational arguments.

Getting married made it harder to ignore an awful lot of things. My mother has observed that marriage is just the trigger to make one into a radical feminist. It's the institution and connected expectations that get my ire up, not the individuals involved. (This seemed obvious from what I've said, but I thought I would state it explicitly, before anyone starts into the "Poor Ingvar" chorus. Not that clarification usually stops the determined, mind.)

This was trying very hard indeed to turn into a lengthy rant about my mother's wrongheadedness, and forced assimilation a'marchin' on, but I doubt even people who have met my mother--or tolerate my anthropological ramblings--would find that interesting. Let's just say that there's room for scads of self-deception on a topic difficult to separate from such hefty power dynamics, and I am not exempting myself from that observation!

Comments

[megamole.livejournal.com]

Er, "this post" appears to be protected by Weirdness.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

I've been married, and I am very reluctant to entertain the thought of ever marrying again - not because my husband was an abusive monster (he wasn't; and right up to the day he died he was my closest, oldest, most trusted friend and I still wake in tears because he's dead), but because I have seen at first hand that marriage is nothing but an empty sham; a paper convenience and a culturally-enforced of "wife" that carries centuries of subservient overtones.

How often I have heard that trite phrase, "You'll make someone a good wife one day"?? As if there were nothing in my future but the assumption I would settle down as the dutiful wife making the perfect cups of coffee, the perfect meal, raising the perfect children.

I have found a soulmate, we have a beautiful daughter together - and I am actually rather glad that current British law does not allow polygamy. I am with him because I choose to be, not because of a piece of paper.

[urocyon-c.livejournal.com]

Any specific weirdness? I just checked the link.

It's http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/06/13/the-post-on-marriage (http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/06/13/the-post-on-marriage)

[ivy]

Yep, I really dislike it, but... immigration. I did not want to get married again, and did anyway. No kids, thankfully. But the creeping social crap drives me nuts. I shall continue to bite the head off anyone who calls me Mrs. anything.

[saigh-allaidh.livejournal.com]

OMGs! I stupidly clicked from her blog to the article. "Never been happier?" I'm no psychologist, but frankly it sounds like she's suffering from so deep a deep depression she's given up her power so she doesn't have to deal with reality. I think I'll go to the cellar and bash my head into the rock wall, the desk is too soft for this.

[urocyon-c.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't think I could stomach reading that one, just from the description. Morbid curiosity wasn't enough motivation, oddly enough.

[urocyon-c.livejournal.com]

Similar situation here, obviously. You don't fully realize how many expectations there are, until you're in the situation and trying hard to ignore/buck them--or at least I didn't. When we had the boiler replaced, the estimate and final invoice were just made out to "Mrs. Mattsson"--a bit surprising, actually, since it's mechanical and Ingvar was here for the actual work. Maybe the fact that it's in the kitchen trumps the manly nature of things that burn gas? I just alternated between cringing and dark chuckling. Even though a fictitious entity was being invoiced, it didn't seem right (or legally OK) to refuse to pay!

[ivy]

The one that *really* got me was when our mortgage came... addressed to Cull only. I am the primary on the mortgage, not him. The whole thing is based on my credit history. My name is first, alphabetically. No reason why that should have happened. I called them up all incensed to get it fixed, and they Mrs. Him'd me. RARR. This is my bloody house which my job and my money are paying for, and they STILL don't think I deserve my own name on my bill? Fury.

One of the comments touched on the other thing I see, though -- role reversal. Often in my career, I am functionally male. Being bisexual makes this weirder.... there was the one office Christmas party where I brought two dates, both female. No one knew what to do with us. Eventually I got herded off to drink with the engineers (except for me, all male, and I don't drink) and my dates were herded in with the wives, where they all tried to domestically relate. "So... do you... live with Raven?" It was really bizarre. Meanwhile, the guys are slapping me on the back and asking how I did it. (Answer: schedule really badly and have a neurotic girlfriend, such that she demands to come anyway after turning down the engagement. I'd already arranged another date and didn't want to disinvite her, particularly as it was 30 minutes before the party. So I just brought them both. It was simultaneously hilarious and awful.)

[urocyon-c.livejournal.com]

Argh, I just accidentally closed this tab in the middle of a reply.

Yes, I also consider it a paper convenience. Bit of a shame that it was so, erm, convenient in this case. It's hard to break out of the associated expectations once you've signed the register.

a culturally-enforced of "wife" that carries centuries of subservient overtones

My situation is a tad complicated in that respect--such is the case for a lot of us, especially since television's influence kicked in. I definitely feel caught between cultures, and women are not seeing many benefits from the changes. This is very evident with concepts of marriage. Even among my parents' generation, far more equality is presumed. I think this is a major reason my mother and I frequently seem to be talking/thinking at cross purposes. These days, it's hard to figure out exactly what blend of expectations people are working from back home (not just with marriage, either); the spread of Christianity has not helped at all.* A lot of older women's answer is to insist that the younger ones must make it very clear indeed that we are never to be treated as servants/hit/otherwise treated with disrespect--which is not actually helpful in any way, and blames the victim. My mother and grandmother are unfortunately fond of that approach.

Things are at least a lot clearer, here in the U.K. That said, growing up under this particular fairly consistent set of expectations could not be at all easy.

How often I have heard that trite phrase, "You'll make someone a good wife one day"??

Once would be more often that I would like. Eek. Seriously, just thinking about it is making the back of my neck bristle. Would this be from people you know well? It's hard to decide which is more appalling, really.

I guess I was lucky, mainly running into a smug assumption that it was inevitable not only that I would get married and have kids, but that I would actually magically want to do so at some point, no matter what I said about the subject. This did mainly come from my mother, and may well be in reaction to her mother's pronouncements that she wishes she hadn't gotten married or had children, in front of said grown children. *g* It is still annoying, though not nearly as overwhelmingly so as the "You'll make someone a good wife one day" thing and its scaffold of assumptions.

I am with him because I choose to be, not because of a piece of paper.

As it should be, IMO, and it's great that you've formed your relationships so that they suit you, not contorted them (and yourself) into what they "should" be. I am definitely still working on that one. It's funny how you can look around and find yourself behaving in accordance with social expectations that you consciously reject. I think the paper actually makes that trap easier to slip into.

* Even more recent than I had thought; mainly since Methodist missionaries showed up in the mid-19th Century. The early 18th Century Presbyterians mainly wanted left alone, and a lot were assimilated (this I did know). Only within my lifetime have noticeable numbers of obnoxious fundies popped up, with horribly rude and inappropriate behavior in the social context. More than enough dull history here, but I do keep learning interesting things often considered better forgotten!

[iamhereall.livejournal.com]

hello, this is fellow saponi sis in canada dropping by and saying hi.
(are you on myspace?)
just saying hi, hope all is well on your side of thepond.
ive been of lj for awhile..(school,etc) but hope to be on here more.
there is to be an saponi gathering in ny state in sept, fyi.

ok take care,
deb